« 2011-01-06 ( 18 edited messages ) | Main | teasing and denial fun NOT humiliation »

Lovely Humiliation

From: "David" at u4ds.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:59:04 -0000


Humiliation for a masochist like me is a sweeter kind of pain.
Since I was no more than a boy, for any suffering to be enjoyed
by me, it had to be administered by a girl or woman I desired.

It's a common misconception that masochism simply means enjoying
the physical sensation of pain. It is not "usually" that simple.

Here's a few snippets from the Wikipedia page on Sadomasochism.

(a) Masochists do not usually enjoy pain in other scenarios,
such as accidental injury, medical procedures, and so on, but...
...may sexually enjoy either physical or mental pain being done
to them provided that also brings enjoyment and pleasure to

and in discussing "Havelock Ellis" and his "Studies in the
Psychology of Sex":-

(b) The sadomasochist generally desires that the pain be
inflicted or received in love, not in abuse, for the pleasure of
either one or both participants. This mutual pleasure may even
be essential for the satisfaction of those involved.

You can read the whole page at:


if you would like to understand more about the definitions and
study of Sadomasochism.

The key word for me in (a) is "provided" and the key phrase in
respect of humiliation is of course "mental pain". In (b) the
words most relevant to my own experience are "love", "mutual
" and "essential".

So cruelty and humiliation suffered at the hands of female
authority figures in my childhood did not bring me any pleasure
at all, quite the opposite, but when the female was one who
attracted me or aroused my burgeoning sexual interest the
cruelty was pleasurable to a degree.

The greater the desire or sexual-love interest, the more the
pleasure in being humiliated by her.

In "Re: C: humiliating to him - sexy for me" Christine wrote:

>My David still enjoys humiliation

And pussikat steve asked:

>Do you think David really does actually enjoy humiliation?

And my reply:-

Yes I do, but as you and Wikipedia both point out, it is not
"for it's own sake" but is "provided that also brings enjoyment
and pleasure" to Christine.

Pain (including humiliation) imposed by "others" in general
terms was always distressing and not ever enjoyable for me.
Whereas some masochists might find any pain administered by an
apparent sadist enjoyable, for me it has to be the woman who I
think I'm in love with, or at the very least one with whom I'm
in lust with.

Sexual desire is an essential part of the equation for me, and I
think suffering without it is just not fun. To quote again from
the discussion of Ellis on Wikipedia:-

"it is often the designated masochist who may direct such
activities, through subtle emotional cues perceived or mutually
understood and consensually recognized by the designated sadist"

To demonstrate the early burgeoning pleasures of humiliation,
and the kinds of scenario which might involve this "subtle"
consent. I'll give two hypothetical examples involving the pain
of rejection.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(1) A teenage male asks the girl he fancies for a dance / out on
a date / or whatever.

She replies, no thanks, sorry, "I already have a boyfriend."

He has been rejected, but somewhat gently, and without any
intended cruelty. He hasn't "suffered" very much, but probably
didn't enjoy the experience very much either.

(2) Take the same youngster, asking another girl he finds
equally attractive, and at first the same question.

She replies, "I might be interested, if you show me how much you
want me."

He is lost for words. He is young and is tempted to bluster, but
he can't think of what to say, her response is beyond his
experience or expectation.

Her phone rings (conveniently for my plot!). So she quickly puts
him out of his misery, and dismisses him with.. "Bring me
flowers next time you ask me, now go away, I'm busy...."

As he turns to leave, he hears her laughter, and turns back to
see that she is watching him while she talks. He hears her words
to someone on the phone, perhaps a girlfriend, "he's quite cute,
but a bit of a wimp, so I told him he had to bring me flowers

More laughter, and now she turns away and moves out of earshot.

He has been led on, almost completely rejected, certainly
suffered some minor humiliation. And yet he could see she
enjoyed her cruelty with him. But now he is on a promise that he
might be considered if he proves himself to be her "wimp" and
brings her flowers.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If, like me, you find the second scenario slightly sexually
exciting and much more interesting than the first. You are quite
possibly a sadomasochist and might enjoy humiliation.

If the young man were a masochist looking for a partner, the
girl in the first example has not given any signals to indicate
any potential for sadism.

Whereas in the second example above, she has quite deliberately
it seems to him, shown she enjoyed her cruelty by making him
hear her comments and laughter.

If he does accept her terms and bring her flowers he is
indulging in submissive and masochistic behaviour which is
inviting her to mistreat him further. If he is a masochist and
she is to be his designated sadist their mutual dance may just
have begun.

In reality what may happen is that he is scared silly and never
brings her flowers and the girl is thus discouraged from
indulging her sadism with other men. Or he may bring her flowers
and she quickly loses interest because she is not as sadistic as
she first appeared. Reality can be disappointing like that.

As a youngster I had many experiences which were similar to the
hypothetical ones above, and of course many ended in
disappointment. Sometimes I lost interest in the girl perhaps
because my masochist had not found a designated sadist. But on
several occasions the "girl" I currently fancied enjoyed some
small degree of sadism with me before moving on to another boy.

While it's true that I "suffered" these experiences, there is no
doubt in my mind when I review them from my current vantage
point that I was enjoying my suffering and heightened excitement
levels when the girl in question was cruel and indulged in
subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) humiliation.

Wikipedia also discusses "primary" and "secondary" masochism. In
a primary masochism the masochist undergoes a complete, not just
a partial, rejection by the model or courted object (or sadist),
possibly involving the model taking a rival as a preferred mate.

In a secondary masochism, by contrast, the masochist experiences
a less serious, more feigned rejection and punishment by the
model. Secondary masochism, in other words, is the relatively
casual version, more akin to a charade, and most commentators
are quick to point out its contrivedness.

Regardless of whether you feel it is contrived or not, when
indulging in this sadomasochistic "charade" both participants
can have a lot of fun with it without getting into the heavier
aspects of BDSM.

Certainly, if you discuss it with your partner and agree to have
some fun with it, then you are "contriving" and some folk think
that this is roleplay and therefore not "real". Personally I
think that if you don't discuss it, you are in danger of hurting
one another so role-play is safer.

If you enjoy FemDom but not physical pain then humiliation can
cut out any agony of the physical sensation of pain and get
straight to the good bit. At least it does for a masochist like
me. The sweet agony of humiliation when you know that your
Mistress is loving being "mean" to you.

For the Mistress who doesn't enjoy administering physical
punishment or discipline, the cruel tortures of teasing, denial,
rejection and thus humiliation of the masochistic victim can be
a form of sadism she can find much more acceptable.

Although, for me, the pain is often even sweeter when she goes
on to administer some physical punishment as well, but that's
another story.

David at Ms-Christine.com

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In "teasing and denial fun NOT humiliation" MichaelK

>I have worries about his examples of a teenage male asking
>the girl he fancies for a dance / out on a date / or whatever.

I understand your concerns, but they were fictionalised examples
of the kind of things that do happen to adolescents, and I was
explaining that such experiences may be formative experiences
for a man who later enjoys humiliation. I was not advocating
that they were an ideal of what should happen.

>David's scenario 2 is a fun BDSM fantasy for those who enjoy
>humiliation, but it is not BDSM because it is missing the
>essential ingredient of consent.

I thought it was clear that they were not stated to be
fantasies, bdsm or consensual but were stated as being "examples
involving the pain of rejection". By that I meant examples of
the kinds of things that may cause real pain to my hypothetical

This is something that might lead on to bdsm. I believe that
while desire or even lust is present in a young man, such
experiences of "cruel rejection" may push his buttons and help
him recognise he is a masochist. (or at least recognise that he
wants more of the same)

I thought I was explaining how that might be what happens to
others, as I'm reasonably sure it's pretty much what happened in
my case.

It's just the kind of cruelty adolescents might face as they
start to approach the objects of their desire (male or female).
Each will have a different response to it.

Some will be hurt, as I was. But some may also recognise that
they got something from that pain which they thought they liked
and attempt to repeat it.

>For me to be happy with scenario 2 there would have to be some
>"flirty" conversation during which the girl jokingly suggests
>something humiliating, the man jokingly replies in a positive
>way, she says something more serious, he replies with a subtext
>of "I know what you mean, and I would love you to go further and
>really humiliate me."

Yes, but you are describing consensual negotiation of a bdsm
relationship between adults. It may not always happen that way
to a couple of teenage (or younger) kids. These kinds of events
also happened to me in pre-teen years. And I even remember once
negotiating a girl into tying me to a tree - in a consensual
manner - when I was even younger (long before puberty).

I stated that I was demonstrating "the early burgeoning
pleasures of humiliation, and the kinds of scenario which might
involve this 'subtle' consent".

As I explained, the girl and boy in my example were involved in
a dance that could (but most likely would not) result in a
consensual bdsm relationship. I also suggested that in "reality
what may happen is that he is scared silly."

I was a scared boy, but I suspect that through such
experimentation and flirting with pain at a very early age that
I learned why consensual bdsm is not as emotionally painful. I
learned to turn it into the "charade" discussed by the
references mentioned in my post. This charade gives me pleasure
from the pain without really suffering because at heart I know
it's a charade I sought out.

>Of course the real world, and some people in it, can be cruel.
>So I'm sure that there are women who would "enjoy" humiliating
>Sensitive Sam. But that is not BDSM - it is just abuse.

Yes. A grown woman who enjoyed humiliating strangers without any
reason to think that she had permission would be an abuser. But
she would also be taking a big risk herself if she didn't have
such tacit permission.

It is the kind of unthinking cruelty that happens while we grow
up. I would not lumber pre-teen, or teenage girls experimenting
with their power over boys with the label of abusers. They have
to learn too.

David at Ms-Christine.com

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